Romantic and old guitars: Pedro Talavera 1900 / Hiroshi Tamura P50 / Hijos de Vicente Tatay (2) / Vicente Tatay Tomas / Vicente Tatay Tomas

Pedro Talavera / Salvador Ibáñez guitar from 1900

To present this guitar I will do the accompanying text in English.
Very little can be found on the Internet and even AI only tells us
the story my friend, Ton Bogaard already wrote on his site:
guitarrasvalencia.wordpress.com where a lot more can be found
around the several luthiers that were active there. This example
certainly is one of them but when you know that a lot of parts
and even ornamentations were ordered at companies specialized
in this sort of "guitar additions" it remains difficult to give a
guitar its' final place and origin.

A "luthier" called Pedro Talavera could be responsible for the
building of this guitar but assumptions are already there that
these Talavera labelled guitars are coming from Salvador
Ibanez, Jose Parres or even Jaime Ribot. When the inner
wood work of those luthiers can be studied we can possibly
say a bit more.

To my opinion this is an outer heel form that the Valencian
luthiers often made during the existence of the Salvador
Ibanez workshop and later with his sons.

As I stated earlier sometimes a company gave exclusive rights
to an importer or exporter and to avoid legal problems a kind of
"fantasy name" not really existing, was put on a label.

For a 120 year old guitar it is remarkable that the soundboard
is completely crack free! Cleaning it and maybe give a few
layers of French polish will do the job.

These are some of the more severe problems I will have to deal with:
A lot of cracks in the back. Maybe veneering could be the solution.
Or replacing? I will discuss that the coming week with some people.

As there are too many cracks on the back I figured the first step would
be to remove the back and inspect all the glue work, also from the
soundboard. A very strange way of placing the glue blocks, though!
I will come up with more pictures regarding that move.

A rather wildly figured back. Beautiful for people that are less
interested into construction as these backs are more prone to
cracking. The rather "dull" figured backs will hold much longer.
The heel on this guitar however is more rounded as opposed to
the heel on the 1900 Siccas example.

You can click on this picture to study the beautiful inlays
of which only one piece is missing! Exactly this rosette can
be found on a Siccas sold Salvador Ibanez guitar from 1900
As often! Steel strings were mounted on this guitar.
Never do this as a steel string set will pull on the bridge
with almost two times the force, around 75 kilograms.

A centre inlay that stops when reaching the top.
Most of the time the inlay is all the way up! On the
Siccas sold Salvador Ibanez from 1900, the ornamen-
tation also hasn't been inlayed to the top of the head.

And here is the combination with the bridge that has been lowered
but can be restored to an almost original looking bridge of that
time. The soundboard has been equipped with a 5 fan bracing.

To date this guitar even more exactly: The inlay on this bridge
can be found most of the time on guitars around 1900. The square
outer ends were a bit later invariably replaced with rounded outer
ends. When the sons of Salvador Ibanez were in charge the return
to the square appearance was done. To be continued.

This picture has been taken from a YouTube video that
is about the restoration process of a Salvador Ibanez.
The slightly slanted transverse bars immediately will
raise questions, especially when luthiers are involved.
The label on the guitar on this picture also dates this guitar
to be from around 1900 as the exact year has been written
on this label. As the guitar here above is a so called
"Resonator" guitar, it has been mentioned on the label.
It would be better to give my guitar a 1898 - 1902
label when Salvador Ibanez also was busy on the
Bajada de St. Francisco 23. But at first I will be certain
this Pedro Talavera guitar is really coming out of
the Salvador Ibanez workshops.

And here the guitar, presented with its' back off.
It will be possible now to check all the glue work
but to prevent future problems some extra moves
have to be made. Though this top is completely
free from cracks as often most of the time some
problems at both sides of the fingerboard in the
soundboard may occur in the future, especially
when the transverse bar closest to the heel hasn't
been sturdy glued anymore. A small second bar
will be added. The sound won't change. I will also
equip the sides with some braces here and there
and inspect and if necessary, reglue some glue
blocks. A new glue strip for the back is of
course inevitable. According to the tradition
in those times it will be a non carved strip.

As I've mentioned earlier the slanted bars on the back.
Though the guitar possibly receives a new back in the
near future, I will securely replace these bars the way
it has been done on the old back. A possibility is the
veneering of a new piece of wood with this old back.

It is always advisable to keep the transverse bars on the
back (and front) a bit shorter as when temperature changes
are involved they will expand and thus damage the sides.

Only one repair on this side of the guitar, a bit clumsy done
with paper (!) but what is immediately noticeable are the glue
blocks. The alternate placement of the glue blocks I already
knew from the Telesforo Julve guitars but this is even more
work and possibly could have influence on the freely
vibrations of the soundboard to my opinion. A luthier
suggested it could have been done to strengthen the
soundboard as the edge inlays are quite big in width.

Alass, a bit damaged during the back removing process.
I can have it cured as a girlfriend of mine is really good
at digital repairing this label.

The form of the inner heel block can also tells us a
lot about who actually built this guitar. To my opinion
exactly the same as sculpted in Salvadore Ibanez
guitars of that time.

The endblock is much too thin to my opinion as are the
glue strips for the back. As this is the possibility to make
a real neck reset, glue work has to be done in a proper
way. By diminishing the distance inner heel / end block
you are able to change the angle neck / body and thus
you can create a very well playable guitar without
having to change the fingerboard and fretwork.

OK, on the picture it all looks still reasonable but in
reality I doubt if I can reuse it. When making a neck
reset the plantilla will be slightly different so I will
need some extra pieces to cure that. Maybe too much
work and what will be the result? I do not expect
a new back will diminish the sound qualities.

Some side reinforcements to prevent problems (and cracks)
in the future. Also an extra transverse brace has been placed
above the original one that is glued just above the soundhole.
When that brace loosens it more than often happens that
the soundboard is developing cracks alongside the
fingerboard. In present times most builders are placing
such an extra brace to prevent those damages due to the
tension in that area , most of the time even wider executed.
Also some soundboard braces have been reglued. Making
everything free from glue traces caused by spilling glue is
in fact not necessary but gives a much neater appearance.

I've made the glue strip for the back a bit more wide in order
to compensate the changed plantilla that occurs when removing
the back. Making a wider centre strip was an option that came
to my mind but then all the inner (original) woodwork around
that centre part of the back would have to be renewed.

It remains a bit strange: this way of placing the glue blocks
for the soundboard and in fact labour intensive. It must
have been an experiment from one of the workers at the
Salvador Ibanez workforce and maybe therefore this guitar
has been provided with a "Pedro Talavera" label (?)

As I was forced to make a neck reset some extra glue
surface on the endblock was advisable to my idea.
Therefore I've thickened that part a bit.

And yes, I've decided to keep the original Brazilian /
indian rosewood back as it is a part of this guitar and
history around the Salvador Ibanez workshop.

During restoration it is always good to make pictures.
So here the repaired back has been reinstalled, with a
serious neck reset in mind. It is a tedious process to do
it the right way. I had to make some extra tools before
I've glued the repaired back to measure the distance
between the heel and the endblock that was enough to
finally give this guitar a good playing action in the end.

Here and there it will be necessary to glue some splints
of wood to the surroundings to fill out the 'spaces" here
and there. The slightly wider glue strip for the back
enables me to reduce that to the minimum.

Some cleaning sessions with alcohol will clean the sound-
board before some final French polishing layers will be
applied. The bridge here has been remodeled as some-
one replaced a part of it but did that in a bit clumsy way.
However, it was a wise decision to built in a sort of
octave compensation to keep the guitar in tune,
especially in the higher positions.

The first layer of shellac liquid. Of course the final result on
both sides and back will be much darker and most likely in the
way it was when the guitar was just finished. Over time these
lacquers are becoming more yellowish in appearance.

Hiroshi Tamura P50

Guitars that were produced in the seventies and eighties.

These instruments are not that widely known as e.g. the

Masaru Kohno or the Juan Orozco guitars but they are

in fact soundwise no less. Very well built with even a

lot of similarities to the afore mentioned luthiers.

Ebony fingerboard and a 655 mm scale has been used

for this guitar that posesses a remarkable sound

reminiscent of a real concert instrument. Regarding

the veneered sides: Let us not forget that Jose Ramirez

even veneered his concert 1A model on sides and

back. He experimented a while by using solid

rosewood on a few of these models. I was able

to compare the two different models. The solid

rosewood example had a slightly darker sound

but differences were very small.....

Veneered back and sides that appear to be Brasilian

rosewood to me but a very narrow grained solid

soundboard that has been strutted very traditional:

A seven fan placed pattern with two closing struts.

The top has been glued to the sides with blocks

the way the Spanish luthiers tend to work.

This guitar hasn't been taken care for in a proper way

by looking at the damages on the right. These cosmetic

flaws will be treated in the near future as this 1972 guitar

further survived time in a remarkable way.

A gracefully designed headstock and the odd thing here

is that the standard distance between the axes of the

tuners, 35 mm, is not present here. The former owner

had to make a move to some very cheap and poor

working individual tuners when the original tuners

were not in a working order anymore. Strange thing

is also that a rather cheap plastic topnut was mounted

as well on this guitar. I've changed it into an ivory

one of course with a proper spacing. The tuners will

be changed as well to good working ones.

A simple but satisfying solution was to place pieces

of messing between these tuners that were sawed at

first to be able to mount them properly. Now tuning

is on parr with the standards of this guitar.

Some marks can be determined here as well in the

soundboard but on a rather cheap guitar as the "lower"

P50, the choice for a Brasilian wood bridge is quite odd.

A new bridgebone has been placed as well. Inner gluework

is very neat but no inner heel has been provided with this

instrument and in that way you could compare it with the

Juan Orozco model 8 guitar though the Tamura has more

qualities regarding sound. Just check the Blog I made

about the Juan Orozco guitars regarding Japanese guitar

models and their way of pricing them. A model P 50 from

1972 could be easily compared with a model P 100 from 1978.

From a Japanese source I found out that the two Tamura

brothers did have a disciple: Mitsuru Tamura is one of the

founder of Asturias guitars, he is an interesting character,

a national athlete on clay shooting and a noted golfer and

bowler as well as a great player.

Hijos de Vicente Tatay

The repair under the bridge can be seen by

clicking on this picture.

Now matched up to the color of the rest

of the soundboard.

A factory made guitar from Hijos de Vicente Tatay from which

a lot of examples must have been made. The same models were

delivered to the Ramirez company in Madrid. Those guitars can

be recognized having a dark blue label. As one of the former

employees told that apart from the whole bunch of guitars from

Valencia some bags of rice were delivered as well as there

was shortage of about everything after the civil war and the

second world war. In order to make a decent instrument of it

I was forced to redress the frets which were made out of copper

and showed file traces as was common on these student guitars.

The next move is to remove the ugly varnish on the fingerboard.

Now it looks fresh again and feels better though not entirely

original. The insert in the ladder braced soundboard is in fact

exactly in the seam of the two halves. Not even centered.

Another thing to be done was to reshape the roughly

modelled bridge as it came off allready and I wanted to lower

it in order to study the effect of it.

This picture shows us the walnut wood used for back and

sides. The crack in the lower left corner will be repaired

in the near future. No problem fixing that. As for the insert

in the soundboard: It can be brought back into the color of

the surrounding wood with a water based stain.

Shown here is the typical construction found in Valencia
of the neck to body. The lighter wood is the wittnes of it.

The rosette exist of simple concentric circles and some

"higher end" models show a slightly more decorated one

but the rest of those guitars in fact show the same mediocre

materials. That these guitars sound pretty good has a lot

to do with the resin in the wood that in fact cristallizes over

time and makes the top even more vibrant.

The typical label of the fifties can be studied here.

Presented here is the dark blue label used in the Jose Ramirez

branded student guitars of the fifties from the past century. In

fact Valencia imported instruments as the excerpt from the

Manuel Rodriguez book here beyond attests.

Hijos de Vicente Tatay (Mahogany soundbox)

The recently added Spanish guitar with the frets removed

as the action was too high and the thickness of the fret-

board is bigger towards the head. There a part of the so-

lution can be cured. The bridge is way too heavy so that

part will be sanded down as well to normal proportions.

A little more elaborate rosette completes the 3 pieced

soundboard. Scale 650 mm. This instrument also is

equipped with a ladder bracing.

Often these guitars are executed with walnut sides

and back. On this example they used mahogany.

The fingerboard is made from a dense hardwood but

not really detectable. Spruce topped soundboard

in three pieces as often was the case on the cheaper

Valencian made guitars. No fan strutting, just a

simple transverse bar just below the soundhole.

A little bit clumsy glued, the label just came loose

but that was the opportunity to have it properly photo-

graphed. Bofill & Roig were only exporters. Of course

we are curious in how this guitar behaves alongside

the walnut example here above.

And the somewhat more elaborated rosette. After a set up

with new strings this example from Hijos de Vicente Tatay

prooved to be sounding way better than the one here

above. That one has been sold recently: You simply

can't keep every guitar you're laying your hands on!

Want to know more around this brand and in general

about the Valencia made guitars, just check this site:

www.guitarrasvalencia.wordpress.com

High End "Vicente Tatay Tomas"

This company churned out tons of student ment guitars

from about 1958 onwards. A more precise dating can be

done by observing the label. It will be explained.

Most student guitars from the first Era were supplied with a

sort of "Torres" headstock but simplified and less graceful.

This headform can be found on the intermediate instruments.

Fretwork never seemed to be the first option for Valencian

companies in making a finely playable guitar. Often the

copper frets were there. It was not on this one but after

placing the frets, flattening out then was their last move,

so no crowning as that was too time consuming.

A rather small scale! 640 mm.

Surprisingly was that this example was equipped with a

narrow grained quality top that even could have been used on

a fine concert instrument. The rosette also was a step above the

quite common concentric circles. A bit damaged but stable.

A closer look will learn that the colours of the rosette nicely

match the darker colour of the soundboard that is solid as

one might expect from a decent Spanish guitar.

The transvere bars were interesting in a way that I've only came across

this modelled bars in a high end Francisco Esteve / Manuel Adalid

guitar. To my opinion not a coincidence, as the knobs on the tuners

also do resemble the Esteve / Adalid guitar in this Blog.

Difficult to investigate on this picture but I think the bridge

to be made out of Brasilian rosewood as could be the finger-

board and headplate. The covering of the string tieblock is

a later addition.

This guitar already has a whole life behind itself as some

crudely made restaurations attest. I always try my best

but on the other hand things that happen during a guitars

lifetime might be showed as well. I made an insert

in the outer heel of this guitar as it probably got damaged

by falling behind on its' back.

Also the centre inlay in the back is a sign of a

higher end guitar. I was very curious to learn how it

would sound and that was no disappointment!

In order to clear things up a bit I kind of "shaded" the heel

with a waterbased stain. After that the varnish comes of course.

Inlayed on the sides as well and lined with a rosewood strip.

When the guitar's neck on the label is pointing to the

right the guitars are from before 1973. After that the

head is pointing to the left.

Want to know more around this brand and in general

about the Valencia made guitars, just check this site:

www.guitarrasvalencia.wordpress.com

Vicente Tatay Tomas (Around 1960)

Presented here is the fully restored Vicente Tatay Tomas.

Regarding sound I figured it would be worth all the trouble.

You are able to enlarge this picture by clicking on it.

The "Vicente Tatay Tomas" label with the addition "Vitato".

The picture here above is all about the different labels used

and the period of time when they were sticked into the guitars.

When refinishing these guitars it gives you the

possibility to make the guitar free from scratches

especially the head as people tend to place their

instruments against a rather rough wall.

Is this walnut or mahogany? Difficult

to determine for these guitars as walnut

has a very different appearance.

The extra nineteenth fret has been added for

the "demanding pieces". I've modelled the bridge

as well. Checking the surface on which the bridgebone

is mounted is a must. After that process the bridge can

be lacquered again. Bridgebone as well as topnut are

made out of antique ivory.

A good angle over the bridgebone to assure

enough downwards pressure. The fingerboard has

been shaved a bit towards the head so playing comfort

together with the new frets is better than it ever was.

On this picture the narrow grained soundboard can

be admired. It even has that much wanted "silky pattern

in fact not common on these kind of lower end guitars.

But as we know the student Jose Ramirez were built

in the same factory simply for the sound it provides.

Fretwork is where these companies did a mediocre

job. Copper fretwire and after flattening them they

never were rounded again in those days. That is in

fact a must to obtain maximum playability. These

new nickel / silver frets are more substantial and thus

enhance the tone of a guitar. Also because of the fact

they are glued with a two component glue while the

too soft fingerboard wood dampens the tone with

less sustain a s a result.

The back of the head that is like new again.

Same thing counts for the front. The metal rollers

can be studied here which places this guitar around 1960.

Sound is typical for the Valencian School. Firm basses,

warm and full of character but now with a much better

playability.

The typical use of a lighter piece of wood for the heel can be

studied here. As this softer wood was easier to work on it

was the way to speed up production processes.

This was the guitar when it came to me in its'

unrestored condition. Neglected but with no

structural damage. But seeing the fingerboard

with its' traces of fingernails something had

to be done.

The guitar with all the lacquer removed. Mind you,

this must not be done with sanding paper as that

makes the components thinner which is not the way to go.

Simply paint remover. And after the old frets removal

a correction has been made to make the right angle:

neck / body which ensures a better string action.

As the soundboard is a soft wood scratches will

happen of course during a lifetime but when not

too deep removal is easy. The bridge had traces of

sanding and filing. It has been removed as a lot

of bridges tend to be pulled up often because

players had putted a set of steel strings on it.

That is a "no go" area!

As there was a limited amount of time the factories sometimes

stained the bridge shortly before glued on the guitar. That causes

traces of stain on the wood of the soundboard as woodglue

contains water.

The old situation again. And it is understandable that

the tuners had to be cleaned. Width topnut: 50 mm.

Scale: 645 mm.

Here the sleeves for the rollers were uneven in length

but that can be cured of course before the lacquering.

The word "VITATO" exists out of Vi(cente) Ta(tay)

To(mas) but why they've added that?? Probably because

his brothers had labels with the same name,

And the label. A lot of Valencian labels can be found

on my friends site: Simply search for "Telesforo Julve"

or his site can be found nowadays under:

www.guitarrasvalencia.wordpress.com